tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post7389089863896431134..comments2023-11-26T23:24:15.748-08:00Comments on Time Present and Time Past: Casting Light on Saturnalia: The Pagan Origins of the Modern ChristmasMark Pattonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06621801968983662236noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-1755741134390205662013-12-22T03:38:31.238-08:002013-12-22T03:38:31.238-08:00There is nothing in any of the four gospels to tel...<i>There is nothing in any of the four gospels to tell us that Jesus was born in December.</i><br /><br />There is if the wedding at Cana was a January 6. Because Jesus was around his thirtieth birthday a little before.<br /><br />I tend to think of the angel serving him after Satan had tempted him as the same who led the angel choir - and the same who served him in Gethsemane.Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-68063396884232772013-12-22T03:35:16.975-08:002013-12-22T03:35:16.975-08:00Anyone reading French:
Non, Noël ne "coincid...Anyone reading French:<br /><br /><a href="http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2009/09/non-noel-ne-coincide-pas-plus-ou-moins.html" rel="nofollow">Non, Noël ne "coincide pas plus ou moins" avec les Saturnalies! (et Toussaints n'est pas Samhain, voir commentaires)</a><br /><br />English summary of my argument: Saturnalia end before Christmas starts. And before Christmas there was fasting (now known as Advent season), meaning that far from a seamless continuity with Saturnalia there was a frontal clash between Pagans celebrating Saturnalia and Christians fasting for Advent. Saturnalia started December 17 and ended December 21 (or, in some varieties, 23).<br /><br />As to the Chronography from 358, we do not know either which dates it referred to nor whether it was a Christian or still Pagan one (at least from that picture).Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-13735720817725527252013-12-21T16:27:04.572-08:002013-12-21T16:27:04.572-08:00Great article, Mark. Saturnalia will be key in a f...Great article, Mark. Saturnalia will be key in a future book of mine, so this is a great starting place. Appreciate the information.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-18092216443479942222013-12-21T14:25:42.712-08:002013-12-21T14:25:42.712-08:00Thoroughly enjoyed this article - thanks Mark! Thoroughly enjoyed this article - thanks Mark! Helen Hollickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04292983846350273039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-68297053472399134922013-12-21T12:05:37.229-08:002013-12-21T12:05:37.229-08:00Saturnalia as you describe it sounds good fun. Nev...Saturnalia as you describe it sounds good fun. Never mind books of excruciating poetry [or was Catullus merely jealous?], I'd be hoping for gifts of pretty jewellery.Beth Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04291800895744785318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-91219614196175677072013-12-21T09:37:35.958-08:002013-12-21T09:37:35.958-08:00Thanks, Anna. Catullus's comments on the poetr...Thanks, Anna. Catullus's comments on the poetry are as nothing compared to the things he had to say about his ex-girlfriends. Macrobius's dinner guests do speculate about the festivities harkening back to more primitive celebrations, possibly including human sacrifice.Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621801968983662236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-67231475440566372952013-12-21T09:12:13.135-08:002013-12-21T09:12:13.135-08:00Catullus sounds as if he'd be prone to deliver...Catullus sounds as if he'd be prone to deliver one star reviews on Amazon ;) I wonder if Calvus ever gave him another gift... Re Saturnalia, would it not be reasonable to assume these festivities harkened back to far more primitive celebrations of the winter solstice? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-88287318383177160422013-12-21T06:22:16.970-08:002013-12-21T06:22:16.970-08:00Thanks, Debbie & Christina. I'm not sure, ...Thanks, Debbie & Christina. I'm not sure, in practice, that it was as much fun for the slaves as the principle suggested it should be. It probably depended who your master was. There was a specific social category of freedmen (they weren't citizens, but their free-born children would be), whose status was symbolised by the liberty cap (it was only at Saturnalia that everyone wore it). Many freedmen became rich through business, which the aristocracy disdained.Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621801968983662236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-84353826680746939962013-12-21T05:27:57.458-08:002013-12-21T05:27:57.458-08:00Very interesting, Mark - sounds like the Romans ha...Very interesting, Mark - sounds like the Romans had a great time during Saturnalia!Christina Courtenayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17394275746146697340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-57820984495285057232013-12-21T05:24:48.583-08:002013-12-21T05:24:48.583-08:00Fascinating post, Mark - I have always known of th...Fascinating post, Mark - I have always known of the link between Saturnalia and Christmas but didn't realise that they had quite so much in common. Never knew about the "liberty cap" before - what fun!Debbie Younghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01041441181913334550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-28062875710705948272013-12-21T03:51:24.902-08:002013-12-21T03:51:24.902-08:00Thanks, Alison & Debra, I had fun researching ...Thanks, Alison & Debra, I had fun researching it. I assumed Macrobius would have more to say about the festivities, but it was Martial who provided most of the insights. I wrote a Saturnalia scene for "An Accidental King," but it was cut because the book was in danger of becoming too long (I'm not sure there's a market for a Roman "War & Peace"). Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621801968983662236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-33507850446342096792013-12-21T03:29:25.287-08:002013-12-21T03:29:25.287-08:00Thank you--though I knew of the Saturnalia origins...Thank you--though I knew of the Saturnalia origins of Christmas, you filled in some of the details.Debra Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256313302199653185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-21985582673374902013-12-21T03:12:40.574-08:002013-12-21T03:12:40.574-08:00Lovely post, Mark.
Io Saturnalia!Lovely post, Mark. <br /><br />Io Saturnalia!Alison Mortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12638794898163576730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-73254996342631427152013-12-21T02:44:21.557-08:002013-12-21T02:44:21.557-08:00Thanks, Lucienne, I'll say more about the &quo...Thanks, Lucienne, I'll say more about the "what to buy" question tomorrow, along with some of the greetings that people sent with their gifts.Mark Pattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621801968983662236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3130566520954194626.post-85093179058881814862013-12-21T02:26:21.235-08:002013-12-21T02:26:21.235-08:00Thanks Mark for this fascinating look at the custo...Thanks Mark for this fascinating look at the customs of Saturnalia. It’s comforting to see that “what to buy the folks for Xmas” was as much a dilemma to the Romans as it is to us! Lucienne Boycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04503065710057233256noreply@blogger.com